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Technical Discussion

Matthieu Henkens

Posted on July 23, 2020

Let's discuss dimension, security, materials and the rest of the technical aspects here.

Matthieu Henkens

Posted on July 23, 2020

Believe it or not, this comes from withint the Commune :

Je joins + bas un exemple de schéma réalisé pour l’installation d’un box, qui reprend les mesures suivantes : 

o   Prévoir 2 mètres de large à si la largeur de l’emplacement de stationnement est inférieure à 2m, et si le trottoir est assez large, on peut déborde sur le trottoir (mais ne pas déborder sur la voirie) 

o   Le boxe mesure 2m23 de long (aucune idée de la hauteur, dans notre cas ce n’est pas une donnée intéressante puisque nous n’installons rien au-dessus… mais n’hésitez pas à mesurer un box déjà installé) 

o   Il faut prévoir un recul de 2 mètres pour entrer/sortir les vélos 

o   Il faut également prévoir 2 potelets à l’arrière du box pour le protéger (dans le cas pris en exemple). Et probablement 2 potelets également à l’avant du box dans votre cas puisque le box ne sera pas installé à l’extrémité du trottoir (sauf erreur de ma part) 

o   Au total, on prévoit donc 5 mètres pour un box (ce qui correspond à la taille standard d’un emplacement de stationnement pour une voiture)



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Jens De Schutter

Posted on July 23, 2020

Hi Guys,

under this link some a first exercise, complementary on the research above.
https://www.dropbox.com/t/uCgt3UfXe0bMQyAW

how i see it:
parking for cargo bikes
- the parkspace is nice but is an alibi for the garden
- what is the most simple/elementary form of a bike-park-space?
- what is easy to do your self, without waiting for the municipality


the dimensions do not cover the space required to 'park your bike', nevertheless i think it is possible. On the other hand, the drawing then shows we need more than one parking lot.

next drawing will be 
an exercise for a bigger garden
an exercise for more bikes
an exercise for more durable design: not wood and pallets but steel, not 'temporary' but attached with concrete to the street

Matthieu, did you speak with someone of Cyclo? I once met Dominque, i was planning of contacting him once we are a bit further with the design. 

please draw whatever you want over this drawings.
take care
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Matthieu Henkens

Posted on July 24, 2020

Wow that's amazing!!!! I love it!

It's great that you started with Cargo Bikes. I had Marie Verkaeren from Cyclo on the phone yesterday and she mentionned that the demand for these kinds of parking space was very big.

She also mentionned a big theft threat where robbers don't hesitate to come with portable electric metal saw to steal the most expensive bikes, especially electric ones :/

I also have a contact at Parking.brussels who supposedly has a lot of data about parking dimension needed (for carog bikes a.o) but he comes back from holiday only next week.

I am keen to start building this first idea and see what kind of feedback we get from it. 
I don't have tools though :D Anyone around who can give a hand? Next week so that we can order the materials needed?

Leen Schelfhout

Posted on July 24, 2020

Is there any way we could put an alarm on the bike park? There are fancy alarms these days, sending a text to your mobile phone when somebody touches your bike. 

And a sticker with video camera watch? 

But what great drawing!! Can't wait to start gardening :-)


Xavier Damman

Posted on July 31, 2020

This is so cool! Very impressed with your work Jens!
Sharing your PDF here for visibility.


We should have a repository of various plans like this one so that people can start building what they want with what they have.

I'm gone for the next two weeks but I can't wait to see plans for a shed version. I was wondering if it could also include maybe one spot for one cargo bike? I agree that this would be very popular because it's particularly hard to find a safe place to park them in cities if you don't have a garage.

Jens De Schutter

Posted on August 17, 2020

Hi everybody,

are we still meeting tomorrow? 6pm is a bit difficult for me but i'll try to make it.
if there is any chance to meet around 8.30 pm?  then  i can easily make it.
about the plans: 
it is - as you know - only a very rough sketch... I am not sure i would use it myself, indeed bikes might get stolen :-( 
as mentioned, it is only an alibi for a garden :-)
but indeed, just keep on drawing now, from september i am back at my desk.

greetings,

jens




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Jens De Schutter

Posted on August 19, 2020

Hi all,

having a shared cargo bike in the 'bike-shed-garden' would really maximize the concept and make it a very strong project.
Personally i think you should buy one with the 5k from the project. I think it is possible to make a prototype shed for 2.5k. So there is a budget left for a cargo bike of 2.5k.

Maybe we could get a sponsored bike? Or be able to use one for free for a few months. This project, when we succeed, will get some attention, so it is good advertisment. I think bike-shops or bike-constructors might be interested.

This leaves us with, for a first stage, 3 points to work on:

  • get a sponsored bike
  • installing a sharing-platform an get people involved
  • draw the plans
as mentioned, when we know exactly the type of bike we wil park in the shed, it is a lot easier to develop Version 1.

I could deliver a construction plan (an estimation of the cost) for the shed as discussed yesterday (prototype in wood), around 8 september.

@Matthieu,
i could come to do the test with wood thusrday noon 12am


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Jens De Schutter

Posted on August 19, 2020

Xavier Damman

Posted on August 19, 2020

I’m more than happy to share my cargo bike https://twitter.com/xdamman/status/1251552911403991043?s=21

But I like the idea of trying to get more parties in this collective that could benefit from the media attention. I’ll reach out to this guy who is working on an open source DIY cargo bike project in Brussels.

Is there something that we could already do this weekend during the play street? For example already build the garden part and plant stuff that we could later on out on the citizen bike garden? Basically something to already occupy the space. 

Benjamin Berger

Posted on August 19, 2020

Hi !

I'm joining your conversation on the invite of Xavier (thanks to him). I am a teacher at ECAM Brussels Engineering School and we are working on the design of a DIY cargo bike. The aim is to share the plans and create a community around a platform that could be adapted to everybody needs. We have the first plans and aim to build a first prototype with the students this academic year ! A quick preview of what it should look like ;-) (name still to be determined, it was given by students)




Jens De Schutter

Posted on August 19, 2020

Hi Xavier,

the  'garden' is the last thing to add to the total construction... when you build the garden part now, it wil  not fit on the final version..
but build a garden always makes sense :-)

for the play street, personally i think it would be interesting to build a parcours, (with little poles to slalom aroudn and small slopes) to practice riding with a cargo bike. Draw a path on the street to follow with the cargo bike. Learn people to ride a cargo.

Jens De Schutter

Posted on August 19, 2020

Hey! cool!
there are already some of those bikes riding in Brussels right? always astonished when i see them, they look really cool.
Shall we build a shed for this type of bike? 
The are very low in the front which is ideal to keep the garden-part low and accesible
If good idea, when can i come to measure one? 
Or can you provide the measuerments? Can i have a 3D drawing of it (SU or vwx) to integrate in my drawings?


Benjamin Berger

Posted on August 19, 2020

No at the moment these are just drawings (and plans). The ones you may have seen in Brussels are probably different, if they use square tubes, it may come from XYZ cargo. They deliver plans for their four wheeler only and our goal is to create a platform that can evolve regarding your needs (with help to choose the size of your bars regarding the load you want to transport etc).

I can provide the overall measurements but at this point we still need to build the first prototype and solve some conception problems that will surely appear with this first bike. 

Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 7, 2020

hello all,

here some studies and some screenshots of the garden as discussed last meeting

https://www.dropbox.com/t/tYlbHQ1bEaoUMqva

  • colors are only schematic
  • studie for bikes 45° position and 90° position. 
  • to be able to 'pass through' the structure, or to fit between wto structural poles, and in order to include a bench,  6 bikes is maximum. Especially since more and more bikes have even larger handlebars of 70 cm instead of 60/65.
  • no doors yet, we need to think a little bit more about this.
  • I focused on an easy to built design
  • Estimation building time: 3-4 days, without the doors. Shopping, transport and installation of construction site included


Estimation cost follows.
If this is going in the right direction, i would order de bracelets.

The doors are another discussion. It is a mechanism where there will be, due to de weigth of the garden, a lot of tension. In the design the doors will be the weakest point or will degrade fast..
Would it be an idea to work just with a steel bar you can lock? 




Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 8, 2020

Hi all,

another study:
https://www.dropbox.com/t/HcxdFgzcDB8ArVx0
about the bench, the cladding and about the doors.

cladding:
depending on what we can find from used wood, or out of stock wood it could be panels or planks.
for the doors it is more easy to make the out of panels.

I do wonder if it is not possible to keep it an 'open' structure. It is a less heavy volume in front of someone's house and the greenery could wrap around the structure... (see image 3b)
Bikse can be chained to the structural steel bars on the inside and the doors can be locked.

In the previous design i was not satisfied with the position of the bench. Eventually you would be seated faced towards a car..
Do you know this project? It is very cool, check the website
https://www.gevelbank.be

so our bench should also at least be towards the sidewalk and not towards the car next to the garden. 
in this proposal a bench facing the sidewalk that can keep 3 doors locked at the same time.
The way you would lock a big wooden gate.
Another advantage is that you avoid 6 separate locks.

Working out the mechanism of the bench will demand some study, therefore it would be good to have your opinions and remarks before i continue. 


greetings,

jens



Matthieu Henkens

Posted on September 8, 2020

Hi Jens!

Thanks for these studies, it's good to see the project taking shape!

My first feedback:
- we talked about stairs to access the gardens on top, did you drop the idea?
- On the open structure: I would no go for it as it seems that -according to my talks with Cyclo Parking - stealers tend to target specific sheds to steal specific (and expensive) bikes. That would give them a (too) good look on what's on the menu.
- On the bench: I like the idea of having the bench facing the sidewalk yet I am worried about the convinience in terms of weight to push up, steps to get the bike (meaning if it's too complex to access,  people won't use it) and accesibility of the lock (would it be under the bench?). Did you have specific ideas for these points?

FYI, this is the standard key system that cycloparking uses on its boxes : https://www.evva.com.au/airkeyforbusiness/

For the rest, I am loving it and very keen to see it in the real world soon!

Also, as mentionned, we visited the social entreprise CITECO (https://citeco.be/fr/travail-du-bois/) yesterday, they are located 300m away from the bike garden.
Their is potential to involve them on the construction of the garage, the open question being their availibility once we settle on the plans.

Let us know how we can be of further help to move this forward!

Cheers!

Matth

Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 8, 2020

Hi Matthieu, Hi all,

no intention of dropping the stairs but first the overall shape has to be ok.
for me, a design with a bench facing towards a car and not towards a garden and totally closed looks just a bit dull. But maybe with the garden installed it will be just fine. The stairs will also add some flavour to it.
But the bench is very important in my opinion. If there is no bench, it will be a bike-shed with a green roof. That is no garden...

What if we cut up the bench in smaller parts, it would be less weight and more easy to handle, but still function as a 'lock'. 
Or we turn it around, and make it possible to 'install' a bench by folding out a wooden board.
Or we install a bench on the facade of the house in front (like the 'gevelbankjes')
.....
Just thinking out loud...   If timing is important we can also settle for a shed with doors and start building this as a prototype.

We can use the standard key system that cyclo uses. 
Good idea to work with Citeco, i did not know them. Are they in a position to build the first prototype? Or rather the production of a more developed version, in series? 
The way it is designed now, it should be built on site.
But we can definitely show them our first final execution drawing.

Are you prepared to sacrifice a parking space in order to add the stairs or are we just going to make a small ladder?
Feel free to sketch over the drawings.

jens




Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 8, 2020

how long will the shed stay?
any ideas for the type of plants to install? By oktober november?
It would be good it can stay till next summer,.
The construction wil be able to last at least a few years? So in a way it would be a pitty to demolish it after only a short period.

Leen Schelfhout

Posted on September 8, 2020

hi all!

I thought bench/steps to water garden/stairs would be the same thing. For this citizen bike garden, it is not a problem - it would face the citizen garden, as there is not enough space for another car (if I'm correct) If we decide on putting it the other side, it faces the place Bienfaiteurs
For future gardens I would adjust the side of the bench/steps to the particular context of the spot. But maybe then also the high part and the low part have to switch sides.

If possible I would definitely try to find a solution to close up the whole bike garden. I just have an image of using old used doors :-) with real doorhandles, like entering a house :-) Would be funny

About Citeco: we need to check if they can build a prototype on spot. For other projects they really just execute plans, in their workspace. They provide woodwork (planks etc) and the customer picks up and builds. But we can ask!

I will do research on plants.

For the question about how long it can stay ... we need to ask the commune I'm afraid 

But ... wow Jens!!! Looks very promising!!! Thanks for all the work!!!

Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 8, 2020

Hi all,

yes, forgot about that, the bench is site specific, now i remember.
good idea to use old doors :-)

so can we close the discussion to go for final drawings?

  • 6 bike spots
  • small bench, site specific
  • structure like on drawing
  • cladding according to what we can find (wooden panels, old timber, old doors)
  • 6 doors, reuse of old doors
  • standard lock system like cyclo

i try to finish the execution drawings this week

will you order the brackets? and the locks? 
i make a list of the other materials and quantities needed

bye!

jens







Xavier Damman

Posted on September 9, 2020

So great to see the progress! 😊

I really like the idea of old doors and small doors for the kids' bikes. It would definitely add a special touch to it 🚪

I also like the idea of having a long bar divided in two to secure it properly. I'm not too worried about the time it will take to get your bike out. There is always going to be a tradeoff between security and the time it takes to get your bike in/out. I'd lean on the side of security for this first iteration 🔐

Citeco can make all the wooden parts in their workshop and then put them together on site following the plans. 🧰

Matthieu Henkens

Posted on September 10, 2020

Hi

in short:


  • 6 bike spots -> ok
  • small bench, site specific -> ok
  • structure like on drawing -> ok
  • cladding according to what we can find (wooden panels, old timber, old doors) -> I am afraid that finding all these panels and doors will take a lot of time (unless you guys have special places in mind, in that case I am all in to give a hand).
  • 6 doors, reuse of old doors -> ok as long as we have ideas on where to find them
  • standard lock system like cyclo -> ok

    Hope this clarifies things :)
👍️  1

Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 10, 2020

Hi,
i think it is not that difficult to find recycled stuff. It will not be free, but it is good to look for something.
for example,
https://opalis.eu/nl

but there are other options also, like 2de hands

bye
👍️  2

Leen Schelfhout

Posted on September 10, 2020

Hi all!

so for flowers and plants: 
if we want to attract bees and butterflies, we need flowers, nettles (yes nettles) and different kinds of grasses. And East Indian Cherry, that can grow down. We can also use a couple of the fruit bushes we already have around the citizen garden. 

Flowers will just come from one of those sprinkle boxes - just have to make sure they only have 'indigenous' ones, so we actually attract Belgium butterflies. They are picky :-) 

We also have a plant that can grow up the walls (vine without grapes) to greenify the whole thing a bit. Exact planting spot to be decided once the garden is built. Will be happy to give him a spot because he started to grow like crazy and I have nowhere to plant him/her.




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Leen Schelfhout

Posted on September 11, 2020

If I'm not mistaking @Jens, you mentioned we could order something already, but I can not find it back in the conversations.
Something I can take care of in order to make progress?


Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 11, 2020

Hi Leen,

i think you can order the brackets and the locks. 6 pc of both.

The brackets i think of the following one: 'Wandbevestiging  90° enkel'
https://www.skwshop.nl/fietsbeugel-trapezium
the picture on the website is not correct, but the name is correct. below what we need:


If not available, let me now which one you will order so i can check. In any case they have to individual  so we can adjust the space between bikes.

The type of lock is a suggestion of Matthieu. 
We should be able to install this lock in any kind of board or door but:
  • it would be good to do a try out first. So if they are expensive order only one? 
  • is everybody ok with the app-lock? 

bye,

jens

👍️  1

Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 17, 2020

hi all,

sorry for the delay. with schools starting up again a lot of my projects are also starting up...

it would be good to have a meeting with Citeco and discuss with them these drawings:
https://www.dropbox.com/t/G1OXJZ4u2qD2qtmx
after that meeting i can add dimensions to the drawings and specify the type of wood and 'we' (they - citeco) can start building the structure.

what is then left to do or what can you move on with:

  • look for 6 doors with handles (it do not see a problem to add any kind of door to the structure we have now on plan)
  • look for some cladding material: more old doors, panels, sheets of metal or just new wood
  • look for plastic foil for gardens or pools, argex stones, ...
this all depending also a bit of the meeting with Citeco.

So we need a meeting as soon as possible. I prefer weekdays but saturday is also possible.
i do not have a lot of meetings next week so several moments are possible. 

for your info
the ground for the plants (= weight) comes only AFTER the cladding. Otherwise it will not be strong enough.
if citeco does not do steel, we need someone who can weld the metal bars (not very much work)
details we can discuss on site or next meeting

bye

jens


Matthieu Henkens

Posted on September 25, 2020

Hello all,

Unfortunately Citeco wasn't confortable with the plans and doesn't seem to be able to help us. 
We are on the hunt for other builders. Xavier was going to contact the wood worker that has done some work at the bees coop. 

Any other idea on someone/organisation that could handle this work is more than welcome.

I'll transmit these draft plan to the Commune to give them an update and try opening the door to a prolongation of the project since October is alreayd next week.
I don't expect them to accept right away since nothing on the street yet and the plans do not show measurements.
👍️  1

Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 25, 2020

hi all,

after a call with Matthieu:

here some date's we could meet: 
monday 28th 9am
monday 28th 3pm
monday 28th 9pm

tuesday 29th same hours

i prefer during daytime.


see you :-)

jens


Matthieu Henkens

Posted on September 26, 2020

I can make it on Monday at all timing and Tuesday at 9am and 3pm.

See you then

Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 29, 2020

HI all,

can you acces my shared document ? :-)
i tried to be as specific as possible but of course it is difficult to not forget something and to estimate building-time.  

Nevertheless on a first sight it looks possible.
We should of course try to lower the cost of each specific points

Unfortunately i had to choose pvc-foil as a roof covering. More ecological options are 6 times more expensive... but i think it is justified for a prototype... When it would ever come to a sort of production of 100 sheds, we should definitely avoid pvc..

It will easily be a couple of days of work to build it. (details en finishing also take time) The only way this work can be done without running out of budget, is work with a KVR. (Kleine Vergoedings Regeling voor kunstenaars) 
For this the question would be if we can perceive this shed as a piece of art or an artistic intervention?  The shed is unique, original and has a social and activist aspect.  So i think we can perceive it as a piece of art. 
If there is ever a KVR-commission looking into the bookkeeping of the project they can argue it is not a piece of art, then there will be taxes on the fees. For this i split my work up in KVR and part via invoice. We can consider a part of the work as 'concept' and a part of the wrok as building. (The latter being not acceptable for a KVR.)
For this we have to call the shed 'a social sculpture' or 'social installation'

Of course there will be a detailed overview of worked hours and would be better to spend less time on it (also for the planning) buts as mentioned, it is difficult to predict time for details like the locks and finishing.

if everybody is ok with it we should not wait to order first part of the material.
i added numbers to each item that should be ordered and added my name to what i will order.
For items to be ordered by one of you i will give specifications. 
I will also first make a tour in my atelier for possible recycled material.

see you

Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 29, 2020

i'm getting it!

estimation moved to our drive...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DT0xTEdoW7DSNCvgM7pdZitE9xnzDDmKlrJa02LfWP4/edit?usp=sharing
👍️  2

Matthieu Henkens

Posted on September 29, 2020

Thanks a lot Jens!

For the items that we should order, can you please include a link or a more detailled presciption? I am not too familiar with all the items listed.

Thanks!

Jens De Schutter

Posted on September 29, 2020

yes i will give clear specs for what to order.
just going to think and look a bit for some savings (if possible)
it will follow latest by begin next week

Jens De Schutter

Posted on October 2, 2020

hi Matthieu

i posted drawings for the steel bars.
The bar is highlighted in blue. It is a big one and a small one, we need both 2 times.
also @ Leen: can you acces the drawings? 
i organised the drive a bit (as mentioned i get confused of files stumbling over each other..)
but i stopped half way because i am not sure you can acces the files now, could you give it a try? 
It should be clear were i posted the detail-drawing of the steel bar. 

bye,

jens

Leen Schelfhout

Posted on October 6, 2020

Report of neighbourhood info meeting 4/10

4 neighbours present + Xavier and Leen

Topics
  • Design
- what about putting the highest part in the middle? And the small step a bit higher so we can water the high part
- making sure that the water of the high part ends up in the lower part
- drainage: make sure bikes don't get wet :-)
- let's really make it green: ideas to also cover street side in green (plants growing up or attaching extra containers to have plants grow on this side)
- every door should have a name :-) preferably a strong woman 
- it is possible to use a card instead of a key to open the doors? like the cycloboxes

  • general
- discussion about some criteria for people to use the garden: proximity (people living in the street), contribution (people helping out maintaining it), only one bike per family
- costs: 5 euro per bike goes into open collective account (transparant) Money is used for general maintenance, costs of insurance, improvement and beautification works
- the garden really belongs to the community. It is paid for by Region of Brussels, it belongs to no one. This makes it a bit difficult set up criteria on who can use the bike garden
- right now we only have one bike to put in the garden. Put extra effort in informing the street (maybe inauguration party ... some press?) An extra info meeting, maybe via zoom could work to reach more neighbours

  • Extra ideas
- when basic construction is finished, organise a planting day with the kids in the street (e.g. on a car free play street on a Sunday in november holiday)
- keep the short feedback loop: experience it, let it grow, dynamic aspect of the garden. Garden is gonna get better over the months, different people contributing to it. 





Leen Schelfhout

Posted on October 9, 2020

Report zoom call Thursday 8/10
Goal of this project
- practical: bike shed that is very much needed
- garden: greenification of  cities also very much needed
- community project: experimenting with commons and working with neighbours
- symbolic: citizen spring, bottom up democracy, do what is right, not what is allowed

Round of updates
Jens 
- arranged Atelier ABC to be able to work there 
-  We can order wood via ABC with bit of reduction (Jens will do it, delivery will be there, takes 3-4 days, checking for lower price waiting to order) 
 
Matthieu
- took care of the Insurance  - cost: 70 euros
- found seven doors available in Tervuren
- ask Julien to help with pick up - delivery in atelier
 
Leen
- ordered fietshaken, have been delivered

Xavier
- idea of a time-lapse on video

Input neighbours:
  • design changed: high part will now be in the middle, with maybe two steps to be able to reach it
  • let's build a minimum viable citizen bike garden, the rest can grow with the neighbours
Timeline:
15/10 bring stuff to garage
Woodworks start in atelier 15/10
26/10 building in the street
 

To do's
  •  prepare in case it rains on building day: 
    • X&L contact corner guy to ask if we can use space in building
    • Matthieu checks out wood atelier in Schaarbeek
    • we also have the big partytent
  • To make sure the spot is actually free on building day
    • Ask Julien to park his car on that spot
    • Contact the commune (Matthieu?) - this will probably cost money
  • follow up on admin and permission with commune and Bxl en vacances (Matthieu)
  • All: look for second hand wood and materials
  • send the welding files to Marc (Leen)
  • Jens: update budget
  • Jens: keep everyone posted on working hours in atelier so we can come help/take pictures etc
  • All: take pictures of everything (well, related to the citizen bike garden)
All files in the drive - open to everyone

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